Intro Script
===
[00:00:00]
Dr. Nikki Harding: Hey, welcome to another episode of the We Not Me Inclusion and Action Podcast. I'm very excited today to introduce you to my friend Dr. Lewis Fogerty. He is joining us from across the pond. He and he can tell us a little bit more about that, but he is the founder of edventurous leadership, we connected on LinkedIn, I am excited for him to tell us a little bit more about [00:01:00] what he is passionate about.
It's very, it's very interesting. But I kinda wanna know a little bit more about the early years of Lewis. Before we get into what brought you to founding edventurous leadership, if you, if you don't mind telling us a little bit about that.
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Yeah.
Dr. Nikki Harding: but first, would you mind introducing yourself a little bit and telling us , who you are before we get into that?
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Sure. Yeah. Thanks Nikki. And yeah, good afternoon or good morning, depending on when you're listening. Yeah, it's a pleasure. Thank you for having me on. So, so me in a, in a nutshell, I, I consider myself with two main responsibilities. I, I help the early years develop in terms of early years education.
Develop, hopefully across the world, my intentions, and then also I help people reach their potential. And I do that through edventurous leadership. I do that through my role at Bruno University as Director of Education for the education department there. And then I'm also director of Always Growing Limited, which is a nursery company.
So brings the leadership and the early years together really nicely. And around that I'm [00:02:00] involved in a couple of charities and governor roles in schools and, and this all works somehow around being a dad of three boys. Just had a, a, a little boy nine, 10 weeks ago now. So yeah, we've got a, a 5-year-old, a 3-year-old, and a, a nine week old.
So you don't need to wonder why I don't have very much hair and if I have bags under my eyes. They're yeah, there's good reason for that. But yeah, pleasure to be here and it's lovely to be able to talk about this sort of stuff with you.
Dr. Nikki Harding: We have had a couple calls before and I have no idea how you manage all. All that you do. I'm so impressed with your stamina and all of your drive. It is, it is very impressive. So I'm curious, I kind of wanted to take a little bit of direct, different direction here this time, but if you could choose a book or a movie title to sum up the beginning of your own leadership journey, what would it be and why?
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Mm. Yeah. This, this really gets me thinking that this question I started with the, in [00:03:00] my head with like my own movie title, making one up of like, you don't Know What you don't know. And then I was thinking, okay, so what actual movies or books does that, you know, apply to? And then I, I thought of the, there's one that was a, a movie that became a book show that became a movie called Into the Wild, and it's like a journey of lesson self discovery.
Imperfection, you know, and I think that's absolutely kind of what my early leadership journey was all about. I've been a business owner for over 10 years now, and I think if you asked me eight years ago, I'd be like, yeah, I got it cracked. I know what I'm doing. Then you asked me six years ago. Yeah, I got now I finally got it cracked now four.
And even now I'm like, yeah, I'm still learning. The more I know. The more I know, I don't know. So that one came to mind, but then also maybe a more popular movie would be The Matrix. Thinking about that metaphor about, you know, deeper truths and realizing what it should all be about and which pill to take and, and that kind of thing.
So yeah, those two came to mind, but I think it's just really about, yeah, the journey. [00:04:00] Hardships. Hard work resilience. I think it's a combination with those things. Is there any movie you can think of that has that kind of stuff in it, I think would apply as well.
Dr. Nikki Harding: The, the couple times that I've met you, I think that that aligns with with what I know about you for sure.
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Yeah.
Dr. Nikki Harding: So the teenage years are tough for anybody. So I have two teenage daughters. And I think we learn a lot in our teenage years. I think those, those are thing lessons that often stay with us for a long time. So, for you, what are some surprising or maybe lesser known experiences from your teenage years that shaped the way you view leadership today?
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: So.
Professional life or who you see before you today? As starting when I was in my twenties in some ways I don't recognize the person that people would've known when I was. Yeah. 13, 14, 15, 16. Like, I think I've changed a lot since then. And so this was an [00:05:00] interesting one. Trying to, this is an interesting question.
Trying to think about what do I still take with me and, and on reflection for me I, I thought of this, I, my, one of my first jobs was, uh, in a garden center. And I had no interest in, you know, plants or, you know, anything like that. I didn't wanna learn really. I was just there to be friendly to the customers, lift the heavy bags of compost and stuff like that.
And that's what I wanted to do. I didn't wanna learn, you know, why plants grow in a certain direction and, and I had no interest. So whenever a customer asked me a question about the plants, I would say, oh, sorry, bear with me. I'll just find a colleague that can help you. You know, find 'em as quick as I can, but that become a bit of a problem with my, my boss at the time.
And, um, the, I'm getting to the point here of the sense that sometimes you, you've got different types of team members and, you know, some team members just want to carry the compost, water, the plants and, and get in and get out. And I think. At first, I had a problem with that, even as a business owner myself, and I understood [00:06:00] why my boss at that time was frustrated.
Like, why, why do you not wanna learn and become an expert and help the customers? And but now I recognize that you need to have, you know, the person that knows everything about plants that has got a, a, you know, a master of qualification in something except, but you also need the people that are gonna water the plant and carry the compost.
And I think recognizing that that team spirit of knowing you can't have everyone, I mean, you probably wouldn't be able to afford to pay everyone if they all had a master's in, um, something to do with plants as well. So I think it's recognizing the value that people bring to a team, and I've got better at that over time, recognizing that everyone does have that thing that they're brilliant at.
And sometimes it's just about, you know, recognizing, helping 'em find what that is. And that's in a broader sense as well, even not as someone within your own organization, but just when you're working with students or, or people, they might not have found their thing yet. And you might have seen the the, the vision, the, the image before of like, uh, Einstein said that if you treat a fish by its ability to judge climb a tree, it will [00:07:00] think it's life live, its life thinking.
It's stupid. And I think that really applies. That sort of situation. So recognizing people's strengths and really leaning into that, that sort of stayed with me from my teenage years. And, um, but it was, I say I hadn't really thought about it because I see my life or who I am today, really Starting, yeah, in my early twenties, probably when I really sort of grew up, I suppose, and started designing my life rather than just, yeah, living in, in a more reactive way, I suppose day to day.
Dr. Nikki Harding: That's so important. And
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Hmm.
Dr. Nikki Harding: yeah. I love that you went all the way back to your teenage years to look
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Yeah.
Dr. Nikki Harding: The value of everybody. one of the things that you and I talk about. A lot is the value of mentorship.
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Hmm.
Dr. Nikki Harding: And that's for, for everybody. And I like that you also talk about how everybody is important.
So I think a lot of people talk about mentors and how important mentorship is, but I think it's also, you know, to your point earlier not [00:08:00] just in your professional sphere. So community members, family members w. What's somebody, or who is somebody that maybe subtly influenced your approach to self-leadership that you talk about
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Hmm.
Dr. Nikki Harding: your professional life?
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Yeah. And, and again, you know, this sort of question just really gets me thinking in parts of my memories that I haven't really thought about. So I'm really grateful for that. And yeah, like you say, we've got those people that, like my first good boss, my first bad boss, these people all sort of taught me in their own ways.
And, and even now I draw upon people around me to, to. To seek mentorship. That's maybe a small side point, but I definitely, I seek unofficial mentoring in really random ways. Like I, I used to run, I run past a house nearby a really lovely mansion and it was called Nursery House, which I was drawn to because of nurseries.
And I actually just posted a letter through their door handwritten letter just saying, I admire your. House you know, I'm a young I'm, I'm an ambitious person. I'd love to, you know, if you can spare some time, any in insights you can give me on how to, you know, achieve what [00:09:00] you've, you've achieved.
And, and they've actually since emailed me back. We've gone for a run together and he, and we had like a mentoring run, if you like, which was really lovely. So that's just a small point there to say, reach out to people randomly and they'll give you their, their time if they can. But to, to more directly answer your question.
And there's a, there's a, a man called David Shaw and he, he was the scouts leader of my scout group when I was going there in my early teens. And I, I'm not sure exactly, you know, I couldn't really put my finger on a specific experience where he had directly mentored me, but I think it was just really how he had such a wonderful aura about him, I suppose, like it, when you saw him, you instantly felt kind of.
More joyful, I suppose. And, you know, he, he was the, the adult leader of it. And, you know, I was a. Child at the time and, and yeah, he just really created a nice atmosphere, made me want to keep coming back. I learned so much at Scouts in terms of probably being a leader. I don't really realize now. I was a patrol leader.
We did summer [00:10:00] camps and made our own fires, cooked our own food, ran our own camp, kept it tidy and stuff like that. But yeah, he just had a really lovely aura about him, and I think that's something that leaders and self leaders, if you like, people often say they're in a bit of a bad mood and don't know why.
So the idea would be then, well, if you dunno why you're in a bad mood, you might as well be in a good mood and then not know why you're in a good mood. And that sort of switched to flick, you know, and, and he was seemingly always in a, a good, joyful mood. And I think that rubbed off on the people around him and it made everything that little bit easier, particularly, you know, on camps when you know you might be hungry or.
Bored or it's raining, you know, 'cause we camped in England and it rains a lot. So you know, that sort of thing. But yeah, he just had a lovely aura about him. So I think it makes me think about how, how do people feel when I walk in the room? Do they think, oh God, Lewis is here. What's he gonna moan about?
Well, they think, Hey, Lewis is here. How's it going? You know? And so that's a really important thing for leadership. I think you know about presence. Do people sort of think, Dr. They [00:11:00] dread you appearing in the room or do they feel joyful? I mean, that's a bit of a stretch maybe, but you know, somewhere in between the two.
And yeah, David Shaw helped me on reflection. Think about that, and I certainly experienced that, the positivity of having someone that sort of gave off joy rather than like doom and gloom.
Dr. Nikki Harding: Yeah, that's beautiful. Somebody actually one of my last podcast guests said that that was one of her guideposts as well as a classroom teacher that you, you know, that your students that you have. Have an impact on your students, but you don't get to choose what moments they remember about you.
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Hmm.
Dr. Nikki Harding: to, be really intentional about how they feel about all the moments because 'cause you don't pick which ones they
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: That's, yeah. And that reminds me of something I saw in the program about Michael Jordan on Netflix that he was like, every game. Might be, there might be someone in the audience that has saved up all their money to watch you in that one game and they're never gonna be able to come back again. So you've gotta perform 'cause they're gonna be there [00:12:00] watching you for and, and it helps motivate him.
And I think that, yeah, it links to what you're saying as well, that you've gotta perform as well. 'cause you, like you say, you dunno when you're gonna, what moments they're gonna remember. So.
Dr. Nikki Harding: Absolutely. So one of the things that I really like about what you talk about in, on your website and, and when we have had our conversations. That's kind of different in terms of leadership is self-leadership.
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Hmm.
Dr. Nikki Harding: lot of people talk about leadership and what you're doing at the top of an organization, for example, but they don't focus on self. Was there any moment or any defining experience that you had in your academic life or in your work life? That. Leading yourself meant making a hard or unpopular decision or, or really that made leading yourself kind of that your focus
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Yeah.
Dr. Nikki Harding: you in.
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Yeah, it absolutely, you know, this there's a very vivid memory of this one for me actually. And, and it's, [00:13:00] it was December, 2014. I can't tell you the exact date but it was towards the end of December because I was working for for somebody and I thought building an organization with him.
But what transpired is that wasn't what was happening. I was, you know, young, a bit naive in business and I realized they were taking me for a bit of a ride and it wasn't going to end anywhere where I would like it to end. So I made a decision at that point, essentially to separate myself from that person to, engage with the premises we were using for a holiday camp directly myself, rather than going through like the organization I was part of because I had the relationship with the, or the premises, not the other person. And that's when I started always growing. January the sixth, 2015, I started always growing officially, like on company's house.
Those two weeks, the end of December is when I said like, I'm not gonna accept this anymore. You know, a clear boundary for this has gone too far. I made some decisive decisions. I, you [00:14:00] know, essentially went around my organization I was part of because they didn't value me and I, and I secured the premises with the person that I had the relationship with.
So I think it's about relationships here. Being a self leader, leading yourself first, getting my own head straight about what I wanted and all of this happened around then. And in some ways this is the kind of time when I would consider me becoming the, the beginning of who I am today. I think started around December, 2014 actually, and I mean, my wife played.
My, my girlfriend at the time, but wife now played a huge part in this as well. Absolutely. But that, that certainly is the point where I thought, right, this isn't, okay, I'm gonna stop this. I'm gonna do it myself. I'm gonna own my choices, which is a really important element of self leadership. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna make some hard choices here and build on the relationships I've got and, and alongside this you know a year or two.
Later, or sorry, the following year I gave up playing football and soccer for your American [00:15:00] guess. And, and you know, I, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't gonna play in the Premier League or anything, but I was playing at a decent level in England, maybe the sixth level in England. So not too bad. But alongside this, becoming a business owner the relationship I had with my girlfriend at the time giving up football when I was about 25 or 26 meant that I could focus on my doctorate, my academic career, my business, and it was a real.
It was sort, it was unpopular with my dad, I'll tell you that for sure. 'cause he has spent, you know, since I was five years old, he would drive everywhere to watch me play football. And across England we'd play hours away sometimes and he'd always be there to support. So I know it was hard for him to accept that.
I think now he, he gets it eventually. But at the time I think it was very difficult for him. And it wasn't easy for me either 'cause my friends were still playing. I was still, you know, young in the football sense as well to be giving up. But those two things I think were. They're really unpopular decisions with Old Lewis, actually like 18, 19, 20-year-old Lewis.
But for me today, they're the only right decision I [00:16:00] could have made and I'm really proud that I made them 'cause I won. Sometimes I wonder where I would be today if I hadn't have made those difficult choices then. But yeah, the element of self-leadership is own your choices. I think that comes out the most and being accountable to future.
You like doing the difficult things today so that future you can benefit from those difficult decisions.
Dr. Nikki Harding: Yeah, doing the right thing is never fast or easy.
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: No, no. Was it the, the shortcuts are always the longest way to go or something like that?
Dr. Nikki Harding: Yeah. So you talk about wishing certain conversations had happened at 15, 25 and now. So what's one question you wish someone had asked you at age 15
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Mm.
Dr. Nikki Harding: and what makes that question so powerful? In retrospect, and maybe I'm asking this selfishly. I have a 15-year-old daughter.
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Well, do you know, the thing is I, my children aren't that age yet, and I do wonder, 'cause I do do some [00:17:00] workshops for children, students this age, and I wonder if they look at me like, what are you talking about with this sort of question? But the one that came to my mind is, you know what votes are you casting today for the type of person you want to be in the future?
And I dunno if it would land with 15 year olds, but you know what I'm trying to get at there. Like, are you being rude to me, for example? Because is that the kind of person you want to be in the future? Do you want to be a rude person and you know, are you doing the right thing or are you taking a shortcut, for example?
So that kind of thing. I try to encourage young people to realize that every decision is a vote for who you want to be in the future. So that question, what votes. Are you casting today? And I think we can fool ourselves sometime because we do work hard. Of course we do. Many people work very hard, but do you always work hard?
We need days off of course, but you know, are there times when you're actually not working hard or you are thinking, you're fooling yourself into thinking you're working hard 'cause you're doing lots of things, but are you doing the [00:18:00] right things? So I think that's, yeah, for me, what. Votes are you casting today are the type of person you want to be in the future.
And, and there may be connected to that. You might have heard before this idea of imagine that a movie crew are following you around, like documenting your life. You know, what would the people watching that movie be screaming at the screen for you to do? You know, like, don't do that. Don't. You know, don't go and drink too much or try that stuff.
You shouldn't be trying. And, and I think of course it's very easy now as a, an adult to say that stuff, but yeah, I'm actually quite scared for my boys to be 15, I suppose, and certainly 18 in England, you know, when alcohol and that sort of thing becomes much more readily available. Yeah. So, i'm intrigued to maybe if you ask your 15-year-old that question, how do they look at you and respond to you?
Dr. Nikki Harding: Well, I'll tell you, parenting ages three and 15 are the hardest.
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Well, yeah, I could definitely relate to the three pain. I mean, it's yeah, we, we have interesting conversations here. My [00:19:00] wife and I, she's a primary school teacher, so she understands the younger age range better than me, probably. But it's, it's so different when it's your own children as well, isn't it?
Dr. Nikki Harding: Well, I love, I love that question, and I love the, the movie the movie scenario. I, I talked to my daughter about you know, you have the power to write your own story. You know, you have now and you're writing it. And I think that's hard for them to understand because they're transitioning from, you know, having your parents have the control.
They're telling you yes or no, and giving you permission to do things, and they're transitioning into, wait, I get to make decisions for myself, but then I have consequences. For some of those decisions, like experience on my own. And that's really that's really challenging for some of them who maybe aren't quite mature enough to make some of those decisions and aren't quite prepared for some of those consequences.
But still have the freedom and flexibility to to, to do that
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: [00:20:00] Yeah, and, and knowing how to sort of move the boundary to let them make mistakes that. Are still safe mistakes to make, you know, like, and yeah, I, I'm gonna find that very difficult to almost let them make what I see as a bad choice. And obviously I might be wrong as well, and but yeah, I can imagine that's gonna cause me a lot of yeah, a lot of trouble when it comes.
Dr. Nikki Harding: As a parent, it is really hard.
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Yeah.
Dr. Nikki Harding: So edventurous leadership what your goal is, is to challenge young people's ideas about leadership. what's a leadership myth that you regularly encounter, and how do you help people unlearn it? I.
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Yeah, I think unlearning is a very important thing in leadership. Actually, just to pick up on your point there. I think some, a few come to my mind actually here, and I think one is that, for example, leaders need to be the most knowledgeable person in their company. I, I really don't think they do. I think having a working [00:21:00] understanding of the areas of your company is important, but actually for me, working in an early years, for example, I don't have an early years qualification.
I have a teaching qualification, so I understand. What pedagogy is and how to teach. But I don't know as much as them about child development, the stages of learning for children at nine months through to three years. But I don't think that makes it any harder for me to be a good leader. In some ways, I think it might make it easier because I have to allow them space to make their own decisions.
I have to listen to what they're saying, and I think that's really important. So. I try to give the example to leaders of that to say, look, you are better off sometimes if you're not the most knowledgeable person because you can hear the information from the knowledgeable people and then decide rather than having all this information in your head and wondering if you are the expert or not.
So that's one thing, and it relates to another one about like leaders needing to be, like the voices needing to be the loudest. And I think it's leaders actually need to have the best most sensitive ears, the best [00:22:00] listeners actually. And the voice doesn't need to be as loud at all. And we said something, I said something earlier about presence, and I think it relates to that because when you are, when you are with your team, are you being loud and inserting yourself on them in meetings?
Are you speaking first? I think Simon Sinek, I think it is. That talks about leaders speaking last in meetings and that certainly helped me. So I think. Leaders that are maybe a bit more insecure, might think they need to be the loudest to speak first. But I would say be the best listener and then gather as much information as you can from the people that know the day-to-day operational stuff better than you, and then make a decision.
And I think it probably comes together nicely with a third one that comes to my head is about like, leaders lead from the front. And Absolutely, of course, there's times when the lead needs to step forwards and be in command and take the, like the whole position. But I think more often though, you are like a cheerleader by the side.
You know, or your, you're slammed side by [00:23:00] side with your team, you are pushing them forwards from behind. And you need to be able to think as well. And, you know, because if you're at the front and doing it with your team all the time, I don't think you've got time to strategize or think about, you know, six months in the future, three years down the line, what's happening?
How do we need to be ready for that? So I think leaders leading from the front might be a slight myth and actually being able to. Step to the side and allow your team to just flourish. I like the the quote that like, the first job of the leader is to set this expectations, the last to say thank you.
And in between that you're a servant. Can't remember who to attribute that to actually, but you know, that idea of. When it starts, when someone joins your company, you are loud, you're strong, you are at the front. But then as you, you know, set them free into the world of your work, you just are a cheerleader, a servant, a supporter a confidant a mentor, and, and actually you don't need to be in the front to do that.
Dr. Nikki Harding: Yeah. Yeah. I [00:24:00] like how you said it's for. Really important to remember that the leader doesn't have to be the most knowledgeable person in the company. I have a lot of conversations with leaders and one of the things that I've noticed is the the companies and the organizations that have, what looks like the healthiest cultures are the ones where the leaders are really comfortable saying yeah, I am not the most knowledgeable in that area, but. I have a curriculum director who
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Hmm.
Dr. Nikki Harding: good, I should really talk to her, or this principle excels in this, I think you should really talk to him. And those are the organizations that you walk in and everything feels good. It feels positive. But the ones where. It, there's more insecurity. It feels different.
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Hmm.
Dr. Nikki Harding: so I think that's really important. And it's almost like sometimes I think people need a permission slip. like Brene Brown
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: [00:25:00] Yeah.
Dr. Nikki Harding: it's okay that you don't know everything. That the key is hiring people who are really good, that you don't have to
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Yeah.
Dr. Nikki Harding: the, of everything in your organization.
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: And then, and then trusting them, you know, you've employed them because they're great. Then you've gotta trust them to do the job. And, and then actually I subscribed to Greg Mke, who wrote the Essentialist or Essentialism book. Wonderful book. I'd recommend it. But his, his email today or this week was about trust, and it said that lack of trust is a tax you have to pay on every interaction or every part of your job.
So in like some of the examples you gave there, if the leader didn't trust the curriculum director, they would have to be the middle person and say, look, oh, curriculum director, I've got this question for you, and then they come back to it. Then all that time is that tax spent on a lack of trust they would have for the curriculum director.
So I think working on trust with the people you've employed to do the job can really help you be a better leader. That doesn't have to be at the front of everything as well.[00:26:00]
Dr. Nikki Harding: Yeah. So given all the things we've talked about, I'm assuming you're also familiar with the work of Adam Grant.
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I love his work. Yeah.
Dr. Nikki Harding: Me too. So this next question I have been thinking about Adam Grant's work and when he talks about how we are emotionally tied to our beliefs,
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Hmm.
Dr. Nikki Harding: So I, and I think that's really interesting that, that we you know, that when we are proven wrong, we should actually just be kind of celebrating that we learned something new, not, not devastated that we were wrong but that we're so emotionally tied to our belief set that that's that is how we tend to respond to things.
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Hmm.
Dr. Nikki Harding: So that's something in my own leadership that I'm, that I'm working on that we need to look at how supporting others sometimes means letting go of our own assumptions. So I'm curious if you have had that experience if there's been a time when supporting others [00:27:00] meant letting go of your own assumptions or your own previous approaches, and if that has impacted your definition of leadership.
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Mm. Yeah. I mean yes. And I think, you know, to think of a def definition of leadership, I find very. Difficult to talk about. Actually, I think the self-leadership is like for me, a pre precursor to leadership being able, you can't lead yourself well. You shouldn't be able to lead up, you shouldn't be leading others well, but you know, to answer your question, I think the main thing that's happened to me in the last two years is I, I've started supporting education in Uganda.
And for me, the, the, I founded a charity in 2023 called Connected International, that we are, you know, we try to engage with schools here in England to raise awareness of what it's like to be educated in Uganda. And I visited there for the first time last November. And I was only there for a week. So I'm not gonna pretend I'm an expert in Ugandan culture, but I spend a lot of my days speaking with Ugandans.
I'm doing some research at the moment around leading with love and how that differs in Uganda compared to England, for example, early days [00:28:00] research. But you know, it's it's really. When I first started working with Ugandans, it started from LinkedIn, a connection, a conversation on WhatsApp, a phone call, a video call, a visit.
It just developed and I thought they needed to learn. Like pretty much everything from the Western world. Like they're poor, they're, you know, uneducated, they're all these things that, that we are not, and they need to catch up with us. And yeah, showing my complete, you know, obnoxious unawareness of what it is actually like in the Ugandan community.
And when I visited, I stayed with the connection that I made, so I didn't stay in a hotel. I stayed in the local area with him. I went for lunch at his parents' house and walked away with this set of bananas like that. I couldn't carry in two arms, but purely because I commented like, wow, that is a huge bunch.
I've never seen a bunch of bananas more than like eight. You know, [00:29:00] in England we don't get them. And this was about 40. He insisted that I took them with me, you know? But I think what I've learned is that Ugandans are,
Dr. Nikki Harding: Outta
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: yeah.
Dr. Nikki Harding: can you get those on the plane?
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Judge, you know what we, so then another random fact about Ugandan, where, where we parked the car, there was army personnel there that looked after the car at night and we gave the bananas to them.
So I'm sure his mum wouldn't mind that a bunch of Ugandan army officials. Enjoyed those bananas and we took a small bunch back to eat. But, you know, yeah, it, it just, I learned, no, I, I learned so much from them. The, the sense of togetherness, the sense of community that I think has been lost, certainly in my experience in the, kind of, in the western world, salmon America.
But the social mobility is so rife that. That sense of togetherness is just not there so much in communities. Those small cohorts where you just, your neighbor's in your house all the time and that sort of thing, and the children are just there playing out the front, everyone's safe. But there was just so much so much joy I suppose, and for me, [00:30:00] I thought.
I, I thought they needed something from me. And, you know, in a sense, I, I hope I bring value. I, I, you know, I donate money, I support them with their curriculum. I support them with how to spend that money. And their nursery that I support and another youth provision have certainly developed through the support, but they don't need as much from me as I thought they did.
They, they need someone to believe in them like we all do. So, yeah, in terms of how this relates to leadership is a bit more tenuous, I suppose, but I think it's about not thinking, you know. What you think you know about somebody, I suppose, because yeah, it's just changed the way I speak about Ugandan people.
The, my excitement about going back there. And I just think we've got so much we could learn from Ugandans as well in terms of appreciating what we have in, in, and so I think that applies in leadership as well. As soon as you think, as soon as you stop trying to learn about the people you work with.
You are gonna start to see that [00:31:00] relationship crack. I think you don't know what's going on with people unless you keep trying to figure it out. And yeah, if you think you know somebody, that's great, but just make sure you keep trying to know that person as well. 'cause. Life happens, as we all know, and things can be unexpected sometimes.
So yeah, I think for me, that's what I've learned and the joy of helping people as well. It just strengthened my approach to leadership in the sense of as a servant, as a helper, helping them to be the best person they can be. And that's what I'm doing in Uganda. I'm a conduit between finances and ideas that help them to realize their goals.
And that's the same in leadership. You're a conduit between. The organizational focus or policies or investment in development to help those people realize their goals. So yeah, a bit of a ramble there. I apologize. I hope there's some sense has been made within it all.
Dr. Nikki Harding: I think the only safe assumption is that you don't know what you don't know.
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Mm. [00:32:00] Exactly. Exactly. And it's so dangerous. I think when you think you've got someone cracked in terms of how they tick, that's brilliant, but just don't stop trying to get to know them. I think if you, the second you stop working on a relationship is when it starts to take steps backwards, I suppose.
Dr. Nikki Harding: Yeah. Absolutely. So from what I understand, edventurous leadership is rooted in the belief that leadership is about creating optimum conditions for purpose-driven work.
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Hmm.
Dr. Nikki Harding: So looking ahead at what your goals are, what do you want your personal leadership legacy to be, and how do you hope your platform will shape future generations of self leaders?
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: So, I mean, I hope there's a guy on TikTok I follow called, I think it's Ben Akins or someone, but he, he reports on stories people share with him about bad bosses, about how they didn't, they tried to take away annual leave partway through the annual leave, or they paid for a round of drinks, then asked for the team to contribute afterwards.
Like really horrible [00:33:00] stories of just bad leadership. And I, I hope there's less bad leaders in the world moving forward, which is. Everyone. So that's a real thing, but I also hope people discover sooner like they can and need to design their own life. You know, no one else. It's not a task you can delegate, no one else can or should be able to do it for you.
I think it speaks back to, you know, your 15-year-old. Of course you can guide them towards certain things, but they need to say, Hey, mom. I'm trying this. Okay, leave me alone. And maybe they won't do that at 15. Maybe they'll do that at 19. Maybe they won't do it till they're 25. Maybe they won't do it till they're 35.
And I think, I hope the work that we are trying to do will just get people thinking sooner. Oh, hang on. This is in my hands. The where, like where we are today, you and I as individuals, is a result of all the choices we've made over the past 1, 2, 5, 10 years of our lives. [00:34:00] And yeah, I think the sooner people realize that this is their life to, to, to discover, to design the pursuit of Ikigai, which is a lovely Japanese concept about finding fulfillment in what you do.
You know something, the world needs something you can be paid for, something, you have passion for something you're good at. You've gotta start that journey. And I'm not saying you can start it at 15 even. I, I didn't start it out at 15 for sure. I'm not sure I discovered it until I was maybe 29. And I still think that's, you know quite early probably.
And like the, the point that really comes to my mind is I hope people that are already experiencing success, so a lot of the conversation has been directed towards maybe the younger age range, but actually people that are already. Thinking that they, you know, they've got money, they've got their nice car, they've got, I think it's about working out what's enough.
You need to know what your enough is before, like losing yourself or, or potentially, you know, losing marriages or, or losing that relationship with your children [00:35:00] in pursuit of more. And there's a, again, I can't remember who to attribute it to, but it's, you know, enough is never enough for those people Who's enough is not enough.
So the sooner you can work out what is enough. And and achieve that. And I think that's really important because often you are somewhere. Now that you only dreamt of being at in the past, but you're there now, so why are you not satisfied? I know it's human nature as well, but I hope the work of eventual leadership helps people to get on that journey towards discovering fulfillment, then realizing when they get there that they're there and appreciating that and not losing themselves in the pursuit of more, because then it just sort of unravels the cycle and it.
What did you do it all for in the first place?
Dr. Nikki Harding: I love that. That's beautiful. I do wanna give you a little bit of time to talk about how you support students and schools a little bit. So would you mind talking about what that looks like when you when you [00:36:00] work with students?
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Yeah, so the, the most interesting thing we're, we're doing right now is we're, we think we found the first school that's gonna be a, an edventurous school. And, and that is essentially a, it is a six form program where I deliver a series of workshops to their. Six form leaders. So in, in England? Yeah. The sixth form is that, that kind of last two years of school schooling, people might be at college that age, but they'll be 17 years old-ish.
And they're the prefects in school. I'm not sure how you might call them in America, but they're the ones that might have additional responsibility to help the school run. And I'm delivering workshops to them. To help them be better leaders of themselves and of their, you know, remit within the school.
And so that's a, a really wonderful thing that I'm enjoying to do. I've done that in, in several different schools where it's been small focus workshops with a group of students or as a, an assembly for example. Speaking to the whole group of students. And that can be a bit trickier 'cause I really like to have individual conversations with people and learn, try to get to know them a bit more.
So I'm [00:37:00] excited to continue with this. A particular project right now we're working on with, with a school, and then we've got some online material as well. So, you know, we, we recognize that I can't, as much as I'd love to, like travel all over the country and all over the world speaking to people like self leadership, we have online material as well.
A lot of it's for free. To try to get people to like, as you've just asked me, you know, to discover that they're designing their own lives as well, like a leadership launch challenge to get people to actually do things. 'cause I think that's an important point that you can think all you want and listen to all the podcasts you want, but if you don't do anything, nothing's gonna change.
Like, nothing changes if nothing changes. So that's some really important work we're doing as well. And yeah, so a mixture of online, in person work, but all around trying to get people to discover. Yeah. What they want from life. And in England we're working on a, like we have A-P-S-H-E curriculum, it's personal social health education.
And in England it's not compulsory for the 17, 18 year olds to study that. We've put together an [00:38:00] online program. There's completely online for students to continue to engage with knowledge around. Relationships, health, drugs, sex, really important topics like that that can really impact, you know, the future of your lives.
So we want to really make sure that that social education continues. You know, it's not just about maths, English, and science. I think education, the whole person is incredibly important. So we're trying to compliment the main curriculum with that work that we're doing.
Dr. Nikki Harding: Yeah. That's great. That's really important work. You are you are doing amazing work in England and Uganda. That is incredible.
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: Thank you.
Dr. Nikki Harding: I do not know how you have time to do all of that with three small children, including a newborn. And, and I appreciate everything that you are doing. How can people get ahold of you?
Dr. Lewis Fogarty: The main way would be LinkedIn, I'd say. I don't have time for it. I have an Instagram profile, but I think my wife goes on it more than me. You know, she gets bored of her Instagram, she has a look on mine sort of thing. [00:39:00] But you know, we I, I have, but LinkedIn is the place, really. Louis focusing on LinkedIn.
You'll find me on there. I, I post every day. I've, I've tried to be disciplined myself. I posted every day since. At the start of 2024. So I'm in my like year and a half now, posting every day. So you'll see some ideas on there. I hope some trying with you. And like any academic, I work at Bruno University, so you can just Google my name at Bruno University and you'll find a ways to reach me academically if you're interested in it.
The conversations around that, that sort of work.
Dr. Nikki Harding: . Really appreciate your time. Thank you very much.
