Room recording - Jun 04, 2025
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Dr. Nikki Harding: [00:00:00] Hey, hello and welcome to another episode of the We Not Me Inclusion in Action Podcast. I am your host, Nikki Harding, and today I am pleased to be here with our guest Brenna Dooley, who is a principal at Jeff West Middle School. And one of the first things that I noticed. About Brenna is that she really prioritizes making sure that the team she supports always feels seen and heard. Brenna, could you start with a little bit of an introduction and tell us a little bit about yourself?
Brenna : Okay. Like you said, I'm a middle school principal. That's my, I finished up my fourth year at Jeff West Middle School. Prior to that, I was an elementary principal for four years in western Kansas, and I spent 10 years teaching before I became a principal. I taught a wide range of grades, first grade, second, kindergarten, sixth.
I got a experience with all the grades and I wanted to do that before I became a leader. 'cause I felt it was important to have just a bigger understanding of the [00:01:00] standards at each grade level and just the children, that you're working with at each grade level. So I could best help my teachers.
Dr. Nikki Harding: Yeah,
Brenna : had two children, got a husband, three dogs. Keep me busy.
Dr. Nikki Harding: those are all important things.
Brenna : Yeah.
Dr. Nikki Harding: Brenna, can you tell us a defining moment or experience that shaped how you view leadership or your leadership style? Particularly how you view evaluating your staff appreciation while also raising expectations.
Brenna : I would say one of the biggest things that. Just my view going into leadership was my first few years of teaching my very first principal for the three years that I worked with him could never say my name right. My name was always Brina or Brianna or Brenda. No matter how many times I would correct him, no matter how many times any of the other staff corrected him, he would never say it right.
And that's just stuck with me because I'm like, am I being seen? Like you can't say my name? Are you recognizing all the things I'm doing in the classroom? Some people think it's simple, but I think the name is what your [00:02:00] parents gave you. It's important what's makes you. And so I've always made it my goal to know every student's name and every staff member's name and make sure I say it correctly so that they know that I recognize them, I see them as a person, they're important to me.
So that would be one of the biggest things. But I also think I make sure that I'm not asking my staff to do anything I'm not willing to do. At my school we have lots of teachers who coach and so we have to find coverage all the time, or we, we don't have sub subs of shortage. And so I will step in sub if I am available to.
I'm not gonna ask my teachers to go and do something if I'm not willing to do it. Time is precious. Everybody wants more time, and I'm not gonna say that my time is more valuable than theirs by not giving up, a free afternoon if I have it to go and help sub, or do things like that. So I always wanna make sure that I put my teachers first and I recognize Hey, if I can easily step in, fill this position.
And help you out where I'm not like disrupting somebody else's plan time or like moving a para or, combining specials classes when I was at the elementary. Like I'll teach 'cause I think it helps me as a leader remember what it's like to be in the classroom. And that's something I [00:03:00] was, wanted to make sure I never forgot.
What it's like being in the classroom. 'cause I have to have, a pulse on what the teachers are doing, what they're learning, ~what they're, ~what I'm asking them to do. If I'm not willing, to walk with them and learn, what I'm asking them to learn at PD and apply it in the classroom and teach, then why am I, like how am having those expectations for them if I'm not willing to do it myself.
Dr. Nikki Harding: I think teachers really. Appreciate that. And that might already answer what I'm about to ask you, but I would like you to share a specific example of a time when intentionally making a staff member feel seen, had a noticeable impact, either for them or for the school's. Climate and culture as a whole.
Brenna : One of the things, we wrapped up our second day of our high impact instructional practices training, and so I had asked my staff, I was like, Hey, look at what you're doing. Look at your lesson plans. Let me know, if I can come in and provide some support, some feedback, help you with anything.
My art teacher who's in her second year teaching, she's I'm trying this. A three minute interview. She's I've never done it before. I'm excited about it. Can you come in? Yes, of course. I would love to come in. She [00:04:00] nailed it. She killed it. Like the kids were all engaged.
Her project, they were researching different artists that they wanted. And so in the questions, the kids were pretending that they were that artist and responding like they thought that artist would. All of the kids were engaged, they were having fun, like everybody was learning. Like it was just lots of great conversation.
I wrote her like a personal note that I left on her desk. I was like, awesome job. I, would love to have teachers come in and watch you do this. And I sent out a shout out to the whole staff and I was like, Hey, like someone to watch. She really did a great job. Just giving her a little shout out praise.
And then multiple teachers had responded the reply all, or sent her a separate email like, Hey, so proud of you, that's really great. Keep it up. For somebody who's in their second year, just knowing Hey, I'm figuring it out. Like I'm doing the things, I think meant a lot to her.
Dr. Nikki Harding: Yeah, celebrating people,
Their accomplishments is huge. one of the things I know you've been working on is implementing high impact instructional practices throughout your building. And anytime a school leader is working on systemic change, there's [00:05:00] usually pushback. How do you handle resistance and do you have any stories about teachers who are initially resistant or uncertain, but eventually become an advocate for those practices?
How does your intentionality help support that change?
Brenna : Yeah, so you know, it's still a work in progress with my veteran staff. A lot of it is just getting them to realize you're already doing it, yeah, we did that five years ago. It's just called something different. And so just getting them to recognize like, oh, I am doing the things.
She's just wanting me to be intentional and like recognizing, yeah, I am doing it and just making sure I'm planning it. A little bit more within my lessons. 'cause kids can't just sit there, for 48 minutes and not get up and move. And so just making sure that they understand hey, you're still doing it.
Like it's called something different. It's okay, take a breath. But when we had our day three of the training, I'm the one who led it. And so when we started, I talked about, I was like, this is a safe. Be vulnerable if you were like, you know what? I didn't have any time, since last time we talked about this now and I haven't done anything that's completely fine.
Just have that conversation [00:06:00] with your team. It's a safe space. And they did, and they laughed about it. They're like, you know what? Like I, I didn't do a good job. Like I, struggled a little bit. And so then we talked it out and we let everybody know it's okay to struggle. We're gonna struggle.
But then just getting back on that horse basically, and like figuring out, okay, how can I be intentional as we wrap up the school year? How can I make sure. That I'm, putting these instructional practices in place. Maybe, my goal is just one every class period, and it's the same one I'm doing, but just one every class period and then beef it up the next week and add another one.
~Just to keep adding that, putting those tools in our toolbox.~
Dr. Nikki Harding: ~ This is a safe place.~
A lot of times in my practice I talk about the value of psychological safety. And I think that one of the things that you do that's really valuable is going in and substituting and helping support teachers because they know that you're gonna walk the walk and talk the talk and help support them ~so you're not just coming in for a meeting and saying, Hey, this is a safe space, but you're not gonna follow through with your actions.~
So I think that's really important. Also when in introducing new instructional expectations, there's always that balance between accountability and support. can you describe a time where you maybe had to adjust your approach, like maybe soften expectations [00:07:00] or add more support to ensure that staff felt safe and also motivated to grow? 'Cause you never want to. Soften expectations to the point of lowering expectations. There has to be that balance because student outcomes are always the end goal.
Brenna : I think sometimes just recognizing, how much is on the teacher's plate to soften those expectations a little bit. When no Hey, I see you. I know, it's tough, but I. Like this is what we're doing. And just taking it a little bit slower like that. The document I had created, like the vision I had, I was like, oh, this is gonna be awesome.
And then I was like, oh no, not right now. Like not in state assessment season and spring sports and all the things we had going on. And so we backed it up.
Dr. Nikki Harding: Talk about the document you created?
Brenna : I created a Google sheet that listed all the instructional practices that we had reviewed in our training.
And then I had hyperlinks in it so they could click on that. It gave them check boxes. Yes, I feel good about this one. I'm doing this one consistently, like rockstar at it.
And then there were places where they could like little dropdown boxes. I need some feedback on this one. And so it was just it was [00:08:00] made for them to hold themselves accountable. Check I'm good at this one. I don't really like this one. I don't see the value in what I'm teaching.
And just help them have it all in one place. Within that document, I'd asked them to sign up for some times knowing, and then it was like two weeks before spring break and nobody was in their right mind to be like, yeah, let's come in and get all the conversations about it.
But when we had our third day, like we talked about it and they're like, yeah, like I forgot about the document. And my plan over the summer is just tweak it a little bit. So that's more of a flexible living document that they can constantly use and we'll start off the school year with it.
And I think that will help. 'cause it'll be fresh in their brains, Hey, this is how we're starting the year. We're gonna have another day of HIPS training. Let's really be intentional with what we're doing. And so I think maybe at the beginning of the year, instead of third quarter, right before spring break is gonna be a little bit better for seeing some improvement and just the accountability and the expectations with it.
Dr. Nikki Harding: Yeah, Timing is always really important, especially for teachers. There are always those times of year
That kind of leads us to the next thing that I [00:09:00] wanted to talk about is when things don't go as planned are there other times that when you're working on that inclusivity, because I know that inclusivity and really making everybody feel valued, teachers and students can you talk about another time that you really were working hard on making everybody on your team feel valued and supported and it just. You had to take a moment and take a step back and think that's not how I saw that going.
Brenna : Like where I've seen, like where me trying to see them valid and her wasn't working.
Dr. Nikki Harding: Yeah.
Brenna : I guess I'm not one to ever pretend that I know it all. And so I will, I'm constantly reflecting and I'll be like, guys, just be honest with me. This is not going well. And so I'm not afraid to be like, you know what? I messed up. I am not doing a good job at this. And so I'll take a step back and reflect, and then sometimes I'm like, guys.
I don't, because I'm young, like compared to my staff, like I don't want, I'd have never come in and been like, I know everything.
Ask them questions like, how could we do this better? I will ask all of my veteran teachers, I was like, Hey, can you help me? Like where, what am I [00:10:00] doing wrong?
I rely heavily on my BLT and my teachers and staff that are on that to help guide me. Like I'll throw ideas out and be like, what do we think? How can we tweak this? How can we adjust? But I guess I'm not one to be like. We're just gonna, I'm not gonna keep pushing through. I'll be like, Nope, this didn't work.
Let's scratch that. Same way. You have to do it in a lesson and when you're in the classroom and you gotta apologize. You know what guys, I'm sorry I asked too much out of you like this. I didn't think this through. I like it. Thought like in my mind that, three in the morning when I was like, oh, this is gonna work, and it did not work.
Let's pivot, let's adjust and let's change. ~I'm not. Saying I was wrong or saying that I messed up. ~And I think that's important for staff to see that like I'm human too, I'm gonna make a mistake and I will apologize to you for making that mistake. Or for, pushing them when I shouldn't have, pushed them too much, like it wasn't the right time, they weren't ready for it.
Dr. Nikki Harding: That helps. Facilitate that safe environment for them that you also feel safe saying, yeah I messed up. And I would love your feedback and support. The fact that you feel safe in being collaborative and asking for help is really important as a leader as well. [00:11:00] What's the hardest conversation you've had recently while encouraging your team to embrace some of the new instructional strategies?
Brenna : I guess, it'd really just be that it's not one more thing, like it just getting teachers, their plates are full and they think that we're always just adding one more and that we don't, remember what it's like to be, in the classroom. I just try to be intentional with that and having those conversations.
The reason we're doing this isn't because I want to make your life harder. Like I'm not asking you to do something that isn't, that's unrealistic. It's because it's what's best for kids. And so I always try to tie it back. Like every decision I'm gonna make, everything I'm gonna ask you to do, it may push you outta your comfort zone.
It may make you mad at me for a little bit, but in the end, it's what's best for kids. It's what our kids need for them to be successful in the classroom and then you're successful. 'cause when they're happy and engaged. It makes your job easier because you can keep the flow going.
You're having good conversations. 'cause everybody's, focused, engaged, having thoughtful conversations and it goes well. So those are the tougher conversations to have with staff. Hey, I'm not trying to make you mad, I'm not trying to [00:12:00] add more, like it's what's best for kids.
Dr. Nikki Harding: We all went into this for kids.
So looking back at your leadership journey and your journey all through education, what's something. You now believe about leadership, especially regarding staff appreciation and instructional practices that you didn't fully understand earlier in your career.
Brenna : I would say, I guess staff appreciation is huge. And it's been huge for me. I'm not sure I fully understood just how huge it was, but watching just the silly, I, sometimes I do silly things just 'cause it's, important to have fun at school with your staff and with your students. With appreciation.
It could be like just we do a whoop wagon and so we dress up and we, give treats, but just that little yeah, it interrupts their classroom for a minute, but they're excited to know that like on that cart is their favorite drink and a snack that they get to, take into the classroom with them.
It's just those little recognition like, oh, you remember that? You said this one time. I really love. This kind of trail mix or vanilla cappuccinos are my favorite, whatever. Just making sure you're remembering and you're listening, I think is just important for [00:13:00] that appreciation.
And then when staff feel they're appreciated, they feel they're valued, then it's easier for you to be like, Hey, can you do this too? You're not adding one where they're like, yeah, that's easy. I can add that, I don't mind, doing this instructional practice or, I get it.
I understand why we need to add this to, the list of. Initiatives we have, I get it. And so it's just easier when they know that you value all the things that they do.
Dr. Nikki Harding: Absolutely. So if you could leave our listeners with just one piece of advice based on your experience of creating a supportive school culture that elevates instructional quality, would that be and what personal experience inspired it?
Brenna : I think it would go back from, what I talked about earlier, just never forgetting what it's like to be in the classroom. Don't be so far out of teaching that you forget what it's like. Take a step into the classroom, tag a teacher out and be like, Hey, you know what? Go take a break. Let me take over this class for a little bit.
Even if it's like algebra and you're like, I don't know what I'm doing, but just so you can be in there and you can be with the students [00:14:00] and walk in their shoes. All the efforts that they're doing, the late nights grading, the lesson planning, all the things you remember, what it's like being in the classroom and helping with that classroom management.
And so then when you go back and you're like, Hey, I recognize this, or, oh I tried this strategy when I was teaching, they're more apt to listen to you because they're like, yeah, you were in my classroom. You were, helping out. You've been in the classroom, you've been teaching.
You're not just somebody who's, 10 years out and you're like, oh, I'm just gonna tell you all the things.
Dr. Nikki Harding: Yeah, they want more than a walkthrough. They want you sitting on the floor with the little kids and
Brenna : Yep.
Dr. Nikki Harding: reading with them and interacting with them too. Thank you Brenna.
Brenna : Yeah.
Dr. Nikki Harding: you taking the time.
Brenna : Yeah, my email is [email protected]
Dr. Nikki Harding: Perfect.
Brenna : Perfect.
Dr. Nikki Harding: yeah, be sure to hit like, share and subscribe. appreciate your time. Thank you.
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